Having purchased his first Berkshire share at age 13 and read shareholder letters for over three decades, this top fintech investor states that the key lesson is not which decisions Buffett made...

Source: The Intelligent Investor

In November 1987, in Venezuela, a 13-year-old boy had just celebrated his Bar Mitzvah.

In October 1987, just a month earlier, the stock market crash had struck, and Berkshire's share price had fallen considerably. Yet even with the money he'd received as a coming-of-age gift, he still couldn't afford to buy a single share. He went to his grandfather for a loan; his grandfather lent it to him—and charged interest—a lesson he learned firsthand from his grandfather's example.

He bought a share of Berkshire and, following Buffett's repeated instructions at the time, had the company mail the physical stock certificate to Venezuela.

From then on, every year he would receive a mailed shareholder letter, which he read carefully and highlighted. When he encountered technical terms he didn't understand, he even went out of his way to buy a small book on money and markets to look them up.

This boy is named Micky Malka, and today he is the founder of Ribbit Capital.

To readers of Cointelegraph, this name is probably still unfamiliar, as this is the first time we've introduced him. However, the companies Marc has invested in include many well-known names: Robinhood, Coinbase, Nubank, Revolut, and more.

Ribbit was founded in 2012, with its first fund totaling $100 million; the name is derived from the Hebrew word for "interest" (ribit).

According to its most recent Form ADV filing with the SEC, as of year-end 2025, the firm managed approximately $20.8 billion in assets, maintained a team of roughly thirty members, did not assign distinct territories to individual partners, and made investment decisions collectively as a team.

Marka himself has been featured on the Forbes Midas List for several consecutive years, ranking 14th in 2026.

However, presenting him solely as a top-tier venture capitalist would miss the very essence of this conversation—something he himself detests most: being pigeonholed into a label.

At 17, Marca founded the first brokerage firm in Venezuela. In 1998, he merged the firm's local operations into Patagon, which became Latin America's first comprehensive internet financial portal and was acquired by Spain's Banco Santander in 2000.

In 2003, he invested nearly all the proceeds from selling his company in Brazil to launch Lemon Bank, a bank with no physical branches.

With no external investors—just his own and his partner's money—the macroeconomic environment remained sluggish, and the company nearly shut down twice. He himself almost lost all the capital he had previously earned.

At its peak, Lemon Bank operated approximately 7,000 service points across Brazil, serving around 50 million customers. At the time, roughly half of Brazil's population lacked bank accounts, and Lemon Bank was among the first institutions to bring banking services to this underserved segment of the population.

In 2008, Lemon Bank was acquired by Brazil's largest bank.

After that, he moved to Silicon Valley and worked at a mobile‑payment company that ultimately failed. In 2012, he founded his sixth venture, Ribbit. To this day, he doesn't view it as an investment firm; rather, he sees it as his sixth entrepreneurial endeavor—and the first company he has no intention of selling. As he puts it, "The very best entrepreneurs don't need to sell their companies at all."

This conversation aired on August 2, 2026, hosted by David Senra, the editor-in-chief of "Founders," who has read more than 400 entrepreneur biographies. He began by saying that after hearing Marcas speak so many times, he can't help but think: the way this person thinks and acts is strikingly similar to the figures in those biographies.

The topics cover a wide range, from how every company will eventually become a token factory and why finance has largely remained on the fringes of AI; to how founders in their twenties are now reorganizing their companies, why they're no longer content with just building software, and why Malca invested in Nick Storonsky ten years ago—and how he now assesses a founder's DNA; from how he persuaded Walmart to partner with Ribbit to launch OnePay, to why Silicon Valley has lost its knack for making things beautiful, and why he decided to open an artist‑curated exhibition space in downtown Palo Alto.

In the end, it all came down to reputation—and to a chance conversation at the same table with Munger when Mark was twenty-four or twenty-five. That retelling is simply exquisite—

This conversation was just like an old friendship—deeply familiar and utterly candid.

It's a truly admirable state of mind: a post‑70s generation individual who grew up watching "Star Wars" has consistently channeled the spirit of the "Rebels" to drive innovation and make things better.

It is a form of life in an infinite game.

And at its core, it still adheres to many of the principles that are all too familiar to us from Buffett and Munger—those "timeless wisdoms" that run deep in its veins, such as compound interest, passion, and reputation…

By the way, David Senra's output is also impressive.

The following is the full transcript of the conversation, carefully translated and summarized by Capital-nature, which we are sharing with you.

01

At heart, I'm an entrepreneur, while being an investor is a role I've consciously chosen and cultivated.

David Senra: Many times, when I listen to you speak, a thought pops into my head: "Wow, the way Mitch thinks and acts really resembles that of the greatest entrepreneurs in history whom I've read about on the Founders Podcast."

I think you and they share a very obvious common trait. You've told me before that you really hate it when people try to pigeonhole you. Could you elaborate on that?

Mickey Malka: I think this may have something to do with my upbringing in Venezuela, and it has also shaped my entire life.

When I was a kid, there weren't many people around who liked to categorize or label others, so I never really picked up that habit.

Later, whenever someone tried to label me, I would do everything I could to shake it off.

For example, someone might say, "You're so tall—surely you must be really good at basketball, right?"

My first reaction was, "No, I'm terrible at basketball."

I just instinctively want to break free from any label.

For example: "Are you an investor?" "Are you an entrepreneur?"

Why can't I be both? Or neither? Why do I have to pick just one label?

The more one grows accustomed to interpreting the world through labels, the more difficult life becomes. For over time, you cease to see things as they are and can only perceive what others have told you to see.

So, I suppose that's also part of the rebellious streak in my nature—I simply refuse to accept being pigeonholed.

David Senra: I believe that once you embrace a particular label, it to some extent means you've begun to actively fit into an existing mold. Meanwhile, truly great founders are, by nature, often those who refuse to conform to the status quo.

Mickey Malka: That's right. And you have to think outside the box, because this world can always be better.

If that's the case, why accept everything that already exists today?

David Senra: So how would you define yourself today?

Mickey Malka: I'd usually say that at my core, I'm an entrepreneur, while the investor role is one I've consciously chosen and trained myself to embrace.

Saying it that way gave me a great deal of freedom.

Some days, I wake up ready to be an entrepreneur; other days, I can be an investor; and on still others, I can be both.

There are even days when I can do something completely different.

"At my core, I'm an entrepreneur," which means it comes straight from my heart. If one day my heart changes, then I can change too.

And "proactively training myself to become an investor" means that as long as I keep learning about a particular subject, I can continuously improve in that area.

So I simply leave myself room to keep learning and evolving.

David Senra: In other words, you essentially see yourself as a fluid, ever‑changing person and don't really assign yourself a fixed identity.

Mickey Malka: At least I'll do my best to avoid doing that.

In this life, the only labels I truly hope others will give me are these: he is a good friend; he is a good partner; he is a good father.

I would be very happy if I could ultimately obtain these labels.

Other tags, I don't care.

David Senra: One thing I've always been very interested in is how people actually understand their own work.

I just had an exceptionally insightful conversation with Rick Rubin, the renowned American music producer and co-founder of Def Jam.

Once, I even had to interrupt him because he said, "Actually, I kind of see myself as a researcher."

To many, Rick Rubin is a music producer. Today, he also hosts a podcast and serves as an advisor to some of the world's most renowned artists.

But as he puts it himself: "What I do every day is to identify the things that spark my intense curiosity, and then delve into them as deeply as possible."

I believe this is, in fact, exactly what entrepreneurs do every day—and what outstanding investors do every day as well.

It's just that we don't usually label them that way.

Mickey Malka: I completely agree with that.

02

Writing allows all ideas to be expressed and gives you confidence.

David Senra: I visited your website and read quite a bit of what you've written. I'm curious—how does writing shape your thinking, and how does it influence the vision you're trying to bring to life with Ribbit?

Mickey Malka: Writing is everything.

Because we can sit here and chat for hours, discussing all sorts of ideas.

But if you're not willing to actually write them down, you'll never know just how deeply you've understood, nor how far your ideas truly go.

The articles you've read often start out with around 20 pages.

But in the end, I should be able to take a napkin and clearly lay out the entire article's core idea on it.

If I can do that—if someone can explain a highly complex problem clearly on a napkin—it means they've studied it deeply enough to know how to articulate it in a way that truly makes sense.

So we'll write first.

What these articles truly do is free us from having to conform to the prevailing consensus of today's world. They invite us to imagine what the world will look like in ten years—and what it might be like in fifteen.

First, let your imagination run free and allow your ideas to flow naturally.

Release everything—what's in our minds, what emerges from Q&A sessions, what we uncover during due diligence, and what we hear over the phone.

Write it down, put it out into the world, and see what happens.

David Senra: Why do you think this matter is so valuable?

Mickey Malka: Because it gives you confidence. Without confidence, you'll just ride the market's mood, going up and down with it.

Today the market rises, and you're in one mood; tomorrow it falls, and you're in another.

And once certain things change, you must know what you should do.

I believe that, whether in investing or in life, the only way to truly enjoy yourself is to treat it as a very long game—one with no finish line.

And to play this game well, you must have faith in what you're doing.

You must be able to accept that you might be wrong—and that you might remain wrong for a long time.

But if we write down our ideas, make them public for the whole world to see, and then welcome external feedback, it can help us continually verify whether our inner compass is pointing in the right direction.

David Senra: How long does it usually take you to write an article?

Mickey Malka: Some may take a year to write. Others take four or five months.

But if you start from the moment you first form an opinion you like, then sit down to think it through, articulate it, test it, share it, and refine it based on feedback, the entire process can typically take anywhere from one to one-and-a-half years.

03

At age 13, I bought my first Berkshire Hathaway stock.

David Senra: I know you're a big fan of Buffett, and you've always been a shareholder in Berkshire.

Mickey Malka has been this way his entire life—since he was 13.

David Senra: I saw one of your earlier tweets—around 2015, I think. Back then, you'd already been holding Berkshire for about 25 years. And of course, it's been even longer since then.

And I know you've read all of Buffett's shareholder letters.

Mickey Malka. Right.

David Senra: I'm also a huge fan of those letters. Did Buffett influence your later decision to write these articles?

Mickey Malka—absolutely.

When I was 13, I bought my first Berkshire Hathaway share in Venezuela. It was November 1987.

David Senra: Why would a 13-year-old be interested in Berkshire?

Mickey Malka: I don't know either.

Before that, I had read several articles about Buffett in Fortune magazine, and I had also come across American Express, Coca-Cola, and a few other brands.

I particularly like the brands in his portfolio.

As for things like insurance float, I didn't understand a thing back then. When it came to the insurance business, I was far from being familiar with it.

Moreover, at that time, Buffett often said, "After buying stocks, have the company send you the physical stock certificates. Don't keep the shares with the brokerage firm, or someone might use them for margin financing or similar purposes."

And so, at the age of thirteen, I really did as I was told.

In November 1987, I had just celebrated my Bar Mitzvah. A month earlier, in October 1987, the stock market crash had just occurred.

Berkshire's stock price has fallen significantly.

Even so, the money I received for my coming-of-age ceremony still wasn't enough to buy a single share. So I went to my grandfather and asked him for a loan. He actually lent it to me—and even charged me interest, teaching me, in his own way, how to conduct myself.

Then I bought one share of Berkshire Hathaway and asked them to mail me the physical stock certificate. Later, it really did arrive in Venezuela by mail.

Looking back now, I'm actually pretty lucky that I didn't lose it.

Since then, every year I've received Berkshire's annual shareholder letter by mail. I read it carefully, highlight key passages, and then delve deeper into the concepts I don't yet understand.

Later, I even had to buy a small book published by The Wall Street Journal called "Understanding Money and Markets," because the shareholder letter contained so many terms that I simply couldn't understand.

So, starting at the age of 13, I essentially taught myself step by step in this way.

David Senra: Imagine what a 13-year-old today could accomplish with AI.

If he were truly interested, he could pull out all of Buffett's decades' worth of shareholder letters and let AI serve as his thinking partner and practice companion. Back then, you'd have had to buy a book specifically and look up the definition of each word one by one.

Compared to the two, it's simply unbelievable.

Mickey Malka is really quite outrageous.

I've thought about this too. If I could go back to age 13 today, I'd immediately fire up the AI and tell it, "Organize all these shareholder letters for me." "And also help me find the letters from the earlier days of Buffett Partnership."

Those letters are actually quite hard to find, but they can still be located.

Then: "Read it all, analyze everything, and come back and tell me…"

What you've managed to accomplish today is truly remarkable.

However, I think we might still lose some subtle nuances. Because if you really read these letters carefully enough, you'll notice a pattern that keeps recurring.

What you should really learn from this is not the specific decisions Buffett made.

What truly matters is that, no matter how the external environment changes, he consistently relies on the same decision-making framework.

This is the most important takeaway when reading these kinds of materials.

I'm not sure whether AI can really hand this over to you.

For example, in the 1970s, the United States experienced relatively severe inflation by the standards of the time. Buffett would discuss how he views insurance float and exactly how it works.

Later, even in the era of zero interest rates, he continued to discuss float and its cost.

The global macroeconomic environment can vary dramatically, and interest-rate conditions can differ just as much. Yet every time he contemplates the issue of "money," he consistently relies on the same underlying framework.

David Senra, why do you think this is so special?

Mickey Malka: Because I think that was a discipline he had cultivated.

He is exceptionally skilled at eliminating all distractions, blocking out noise, and focusing solely on the three most critical priorities.

And this ability only emerges when you've delved deeply enough into your subject.

Later, for many years, I would attend Berkshire's annual shareholder meeting, had the chance to meet Buffett, and even spent time with him after the event.

For me, traveling to Omaha isn't about learning something entirely new each year; what's truly fascinating is observing how he continues to apply those timeless principles in the face of each year's evolving economic landscape.

04

AI has been developing for four to five years now, yet currency and finance remain largely outside its scope.

David Senra: What you just said really resonates with me right now. Have you ever spent time alone with Daniel Ek (Daniel Ek, Spotify's co-founder and current Executive Chairman)?

Mickey Malka: No.

David Senra is one of the wisest people I know.

Just a few days after I wrapped up that episode with Rick Rubin—maybe about a week later—I was having a drink with Daniel.

I've actually done plenty of shows about Rick Rubin already. I've loved hip-hop since I was a kid, and back in his college dorm room, he founded Def Jam—one of the most iconic hip-hop labels in history.

So even before I truly got to know him, I may have been quietly following and admiring him for fifteen years already.

Daniel asked me at the time, "How does it feel to be with Rick?"

I said, "What fascinates me most is that his aura is still very much there. But if you really examine Rick Rubin's entire career, you'll find that his core philosophy is surprisingly minimal."

He founded Def Jam at the age of 19 and is now around 63. Over more than four decades, the core principles he has consistently upheld can probably be summed up in just four—none of which are particularly complicated.

First, an extreme love for simplicity;

Second, keep pruning—don't just keep piling on more and more.

Third, always collaborate with the very best whenever possible.

Fourth, start by creating a product for yourself.

When he creates something, he's the very first user—constantly building what he himself truly wants to see, hear, and own.

When you think about it, these things don't even sound all that special, because each one is far too simple.

Daniel said, "Yes. But how many people could stick to the same four principles for forty years straight?"

This is actually the same thing as what you just said about Buffett.

Mickey Malka: That's right—this is what makes it special.

And precisely for this reason, writing is so important to us: once you put your thoughts down on paper, you must truly see them through.

David Senra: Then let's talk about that article you recently wrote on tokens.

Your article is quite long and packed with various charts, yet you say, "In the end, I should be able to condense it down to a napkin." I've always believed that true understanding comes only when you can distill something into its essence.

So let's start with the "napkin‑style" version of this Token article, and then gradually expand on it.

Mickey Malka: This concept is actually very simple.

The term "token" carries entirely different meanings for different people.

If we sat down with Ryan from Visa today, his definition of a token would differ from that of Sundar Pichai at Google.

Google's understanding of tokens also differs from that of OpenAI and Anthropic.

But at the end of the day, they're all saying essentially the same thing: information that machines can read.

If you think from the company's perspective, we call the enterprise of the future a "Token Factory."

You can think of it as analogous to the Industrial Revolution, except that we're now entering the Token Revolution.

In the future, every enterprise will need to reliably secure a variety of informational tokens as inputs—such as capital and knowledge—and then process these inputs to create and deliver new value.

And any service, promise, or product essentially requires understanding three key elements: who the identity is, what the value is, and how to make intelligent judgments.

It's actually still very early.

At present, the first to emerge are cutting-edge AI labs, which have become the initial batch of token‑issuing entities.

They ingest diverse types of information from the internet, video content, and the real world, then devise ways to assimilate this data, reprocess it into a new set of tokens, and make it available for others to use.

So they are, in fact, supplying raw materials to countless factories of the future.

In the years ahead, we will see this process continue to deepen. Tokens will become increasingly personalized and expand into numerous verticals that remain largely untapped today.

For example, today the Token Factory has yet to truly engage with "money." AI has been evolving for four or five years now, but currency and finance remain largely outside its scope.

This is actually quite interesting.

After all, logically speaking, money should be among the earliest participants in this game—it is the most liquid and easily standardized form of value in the world.

But even now, it still hasn't been fully integrated.

David Senra: Why do you think money should come in first?

Mickey Malka: Because money is one of the most mobile things in the world. Almost everything ultimately flows through money.

In fact, one of the ways I've consistently pursued lifelong learning is by tracking various flows.

I have always believed that nothing is truly still.

Money never stays still. It's a bit like gravity: it always moves in some direction, always flows, and always ends up somewhere else.

It's like water, too. It won't stay there forever.

Energy is the same—it flows everywhere. The lamp in this room is a form of energy, and so are we.

Right now, the two of us are generating energy and also exchanging it.

Thus, for something as highly dynamic as money, the fact that it has yet to be truly integrated with AI today is quite remarkable.

David Senra: So how will it all end up being connected?

Mickey Malka: I believe this is very likely to happen at the intersection of blockchain and AI. After all, in the future, you'll need smart contracts to act on your behalf and handle a wide range of tasks.

And we've already begun to see some exceptionally talented entrepreneurs and founders doing just that.

For example, Patrick Collison of Stripe—Stripe's co-founder and CEO—is building this entire ecosystem.

David Senra: Just now, when you got to this point, I immediately thought of something John Collison—Patrick Collison's younger brother, who co-founded the company and currently serves as its CEO—had mentioned.

He said that the only thing he's truly focused on right now is agent‑driven payments—enabling AI agents to execute payments autonomously.

Mickey Malka: That's right—this is the future.

If you talk to anyone in this field, you'll see a similar trend.

For example, Vlad Tenev of Robinhood, the co-founder and CEO of Robinhood, is also doing something similar with stock assets. You're already starting to see them tokenize various assets.

We're still in a very early stage, and compared with knowledge, finance is actually lagging behind. But that's okay.

05

The AI era is like fitting a bank into our pockets.

David Senra: Then could you explain it to me? I know virtually nothing about this area, while you study it every day. What do you think will happen in the next year or two?

Mickey Malka: I'm not sure what exactly will happen over the next year or two. With AI advancing so rapidly, it's actually quite difficult to predict the next 12 months.

David Senra: Then in the coming months, or perhaps even sooner.

Mickey Malka: What I can say is that we'll soon see AI agents designed for specific functions begin to take over certain aspects of your financial life in ways never seen before.

Some exceptionally talented founders have already explained this very clearly.

David Vélez, founder and CEO of Nubank, once said something particularly insightful.

He said that in the mobile internet era, it's about putting an entire bank in your pocket; in the AI era, it's about putting a whole bank into your pocket.

So I believe that very soon you'll see an AI agent capable of making investment‑related judgments and providing advice on your behalf, helping you with a wide range of consumption decisions and recommendations, and even handling various payment‑related choices.

Then you'll gradually see it start to free up time and energy that you didn't even have today.

We've only just begun. And even now, there are already some signs indicating that we're on the right track.

Take prediction markets, for example. This is a fascinating field—some call it gambling, while others see it as a marketplace where you can place bets on virtually anything, 24 hours a day.

But the real key is that it operates continuously, 24 hours a day. In the future, what AI agents truly need is precisely a financial infrastructure capable of running nonstop, 24/7.

So today, all these efforts are essentially laying the groundwork to ensure that the future economy of intelligent agents can truly take off.

I expect we will see a large number of new companies emerge.

At the same time, we'll also see established companies launch products and features that we've never experienced before.

David Senra: That's exactly what I was about to ask. Who will ultimately win? After all, the three companies you just mentioned—Stripe, Robinhood, and Nubank—are all quite mature, well-established firms.

Do you think the winners of the future will come from these companies, or from a Venture that doesn't yet exist today?

Mickey Malka: I believe it will very likely come from these companies.

One important reason is that they are still led by their founders today. The same holds true for Revolut.

These companies are still being driven by their founders, who are now at the perfect stage of life and in the ideal position to lead. And if you actually sit down and talk with them, you'll find that they remain just as passionate today as they were on day one.

They still maintain that Day One mindset. As a result, they move much faster than traditional financial institutions.

For a time, I actually believed that traditional institutions would catch up. Around 2021, 2022, and 2023, I even thought the gap between the two sides had narrowed considerably.

There is no longer much of a difference between the financial products offered by traditional financial institutions and those provided by these next-generation fintech brands.

But today, the situation has changed again.

AI is like a powerful booster for these tech companies. It has once again propelled this generation of fintech firms to rapid growth, widening the gap between them and traditional institutions.

This, too, is the most captivating aspect of the infinite game.

In an infinite game, you never truly win, nor do you ever truly lose.

You'll only be in one of two states: ahead or behind.

That's how I live my life. That's also how I interpret everything I do and every decision I make.

I never dwell on winning or losing; all I care about is whether this move will push me one step forward—or one step back—in the game.

Then keep playing.

06

Strive to ensure that you're playing the game you're best at and most passionate about.

David Senra: Do you consider yourself a competitive person?

Mickey Malka will first define what it means to be competitive.

David Senra: This is how I understand it myself.

The industry I'm in is, at its core, a highly positive-sum one.

You can listen to my podcast today and another person's podcast tomorrow—I won't lose anything because of it. Even so, every day when I wake up, I still strive to do my work as well as I possibly can.

Mickey Malka: If you call this competition, then of course it is. I strive to do my very best every single day.

David Senra: But your frame of reference isn't other people.

Mickey Malka: Yes, I don't look at others.

Everyone is playing their own game, and I'll work really hard to avoid FOMO.

I will work extremely hard to make sure I'm always playing the best game there is—my own—and I hope to keep playing until the very last day of my life.

As for winning or losing, it doesn't really matter, because that's not how this game is truly scored. You're just behind sometimes.

In fact, the more I came to know myself over time, the more I realized that when I fell behind, I was actually a better person.

When I'm in the lead, things usually go like this: You're doing great right now. You're headed in the right direction. You were right about what to do earlier. Things are really unfolding exactly as you expected…

As soon as such a situation arises, the alarm in my heart immediately goes off.

I'd immediately think: All right, that means the rules need to change.

Because I've been in the lead for so long, it's actually not a good thing for me.

Of course, you'd like to stay ahead for a while. But even better is when the rules of the game change again, putting you back in the rear. For only after falling behind do you once again have the chance to innovate.

David Senra: That's why I used to say, during many of our conversations, that a thought would always pop into my head: "My God, the way Mickey talks is so much like the people I've read about in those biographies."

I recently met James Dyson—founder of Dyson and a renowned British inventor—and he's one of my personal idols.

He said exactly the same thing on that podcast as you did. He said failure is far more interesting, because when you fail, you can learn so much.

He always had that inner drive. At its core, it was simply a desire to keep improving. He believed that when you're losing or falling behind, that's precisely when you can make the greatest progress.

Mickey Malka, one hundred percent.

When I'm behind, I'm in much better shape. I can learn more, and I feel a lot more energized overall.

07

This generation of entrepreneurs in their twenties has one very distinctive trait.

David Senra, returning to the earlier topic, you said that in the future, every company will become a "token factory." So, at present, are the token factories still mainly those cutting-edge AI labs?

Mickey Malka is not entirely so.

We are now seeing the emergence of several application-layer companies that are also building their own token‑issuance platforms.

For example, in the voice AI space, consider ElevenLabs, Decagon, or Sierra. These companies are all exploring how to build their own token‑generation engines.

They are creating services that simply did not exist in the past—and that were, until now, technically impossible to deliver.

We are entering a world in which every piece of information must ultimately be machine-readable. Only then can the entire world truly transition to the next generation.

David Senra: After you finish writing that article, what's your next step?

Mickey Malka: We will share it with our closely collaborating founders, as well as with our LPs—our fund investors.

David Senra: Why?

Mickey Malka: Because we want them to keep an eye on us.

That is our line of thinking, and we are laying out our perspective here. You may choose to no longer follow us, or you may continue to trust our judgment.

So we made it public.

Then, we'll continue to reach out to the founders we met while writing this article and discuss these topics with them.

David Senra: Are these typically founders you haven't yet invested in?

Mickey Malka: Most of them haven't invested yet.

Because when we were developing our investment framework and writing this article, we hadn't yet invested in them. At that time, we were primarily learning from them.

Of course, we may invest in one or two companies along the way, but in most cases, we won't.

That's when something interesting happened. After reading it, some of the most accomplished founders would say, "Wow, you really get it." "You've dug deep." "Let's talk."

And the relationships that take years to build between us and the founder often begin just like this.

David Senra: I know you spend a lot of time interacting with young people in their early twenties. Do you think they still approach entrepreneurship and company building in the same way today?

Mickey Malka: That's a great question.

Some people are, and some aren't. In fact, every generation is the same.

But I believe that today's generation in their twenties has one very special quality: they may be the smartest and fastest-learning generation in human history.

They absorb information at an astonishing pace because they're already accustomed to listening to podcasts at 1.5x or 2x speed.

They don't have to wait a month, as I did when I was a child, for an annual shareholder letter to arrive at home in the mail.

Today, information arrives in real time. As a result, the capacity and speed with which they process information are skills that our generation's brains have never been trained to handle.

You can clearly see this in the way they process information.

And the very best among them possess yet another ability: they can articulate a vision and a compelling narrative, inspiring others to follow their lead.

But not everyone has this ability. Many people have yet to develop it.

Although this generation possesses exceptional learning abilities, on the other hand, they did not receive much training in "how to become an effective communicator" during their formative years.

So, people who both learn extremely quickly and excel at communication are quite rare. I believe the very best among them almost seem to be born with this ability.

08

Organizational Wisdom Learned from Visa Founder Dee Hock

David Senra: So, in your view, how does their approach to building a company differ from that of people ten years their senior?

Mickey Malka: First of all, they approach organizational structure and corporate functions in a completely different way.

The organizational structure that our generation inherited and grew up with, I believe, can no longer be applied unchanged.

Of course, people remain at the heart of it all. At least for as long as we're alive, they will continue to be the most crucial element. However, organizational structures and the ways in which people are brought together will look entirely different—and we can already see this shift unfolding. People will begin to organize themselves spontaneously.

I particularly enjoy studying this topic, because one of my mentors is Dee Hock (the founder of Visa, who proposed the concept of "chaotic organization").

For roughly ten to twelve years, I often visited him and chatted with him.

He coined the concept of the "chaotic‑order organization." By "chaotic‑order," he means the intersection of chaos—disorder—and order—structure.

Di has always believed that the optimal state of being lies precisely between chaos and order.

If an organization is too orderly, it will stifle innovation. But if it's too chaotic, communication breaks down, and the organization eventually falls apart. The optimal state lies somewhere in between.

And today's young generation is doing exceptionally well—not because anyone specifically taught them how, but because they were born and raised in this technological age.

They were born and trained to be this way; they work right at the heart of "chaotic order." I think this is one of the biggest differences between them and the previous generation.

David Senra: What else did you learn from Dee Hock? He wrote a very compelling autobiography about how Visa was founded. Later, in his later years, he also penned two volumes of aphorisms titled "The Autobiography of a Restless Mind."

He is also exceptionally skilled at condensing language, packing a wealth of ideas into just a few words.

Many people have asked me: Visa is clearly one of the most successful companies in history, and by profit per capita, it may even be one of the most profitable companies ever—so why do so few people talk about it?

I later thought that one important reason might be that, even today, it remains very difficult to truly explain how Dee Hock managed to build Visa.

I've read his book twice, yet I still feel I haven't fully grasped it.

So what else did you learn from Dee Hock? Did he influence the way you later built Ribbit?

Mickey Malka isn't just Ribbit. Several of the companies I've founded before have also been shaped by him.

He taught me a great deal, especially how to help everyone in an organization become the best version of themselves.

Even the question I ask most often in interviews today was something he taught me.

David Senra: What's the question?

Mickey Malka: I'll give someone six words and ask them to arrange them in what they believe is the correct order. Then, I'll listen as they explain why they arranged them that way.

How a person arranges things—and how they interpret that order—can reveal a great deal about that person.

This question originates from a letter that Di wrote to the team around 1972. In that letter, he explained this entire framework with remarkable clarity.

So this is what I learned from him.

If you were to spend a long time with Di, you'd find that his understanding of human psychology was virtually unmatched in his era and within the industry.

You should know that, by nature, bankers tend to be risk-averse and place great importance on their reputation.

Kedi has actually found a way to bring these banks together through an "association‑based" organizational model.

I believe his truly greatest innovation wasn't technology, but rather law and organizational structure. Before him, no one had ever built a company of this kind using such a framework.

This association‑based structure enables each participating bank to safeguard its reputation while also ensuring that it receives due credit for its contributions.

And that is precisely why he was ultimately able to succeed.

Because no matter which bank you're with, and no matter how fiercely you compete with another bank, he simply doesn't care. Each bank can continue to compete with one another, but at the same time, as long as the Visa brand grows bigger, everyone stands to benefit.

That's precisely what makes Dee Hock so remarkable.

When you're with him, he often says, "What really matters is that pattern, but no one has ever understood it."

Even in his early nineties, his restless mind remained remarkably active.

I often even think that if Di Hock were 40 years younger, he could very well have been Satoshi Nakamoto. After all, he explained blockchain to me early on—and articulated the vision he truly sought to realize.

In fact, if you were to ask Di himself, he would consider Visa a failure. After all, he only managed to realize the simplest part of his entire vision—payments—while what he truly wanted to achieve was far more ambitious.

Many of the ideas he envisioned back then now closely resemble blockchain and smart contracts.

However, he may have been 60 years ahead of his time.

09

This generation of young entrepreneurs isn't afraid to take on capital-intensive ventures and boasts strong execution capabilities.

David Senra: Let's return to those young founders you just mentioned. How do you think the way these founders build their companies will evolve in the future?

Mickey Malka: Which specific aspect are you referring to?

David Senra: Take capital efficiency, for example. Clearly, companies in the future will be far more capital-efficient than they were in the past.

I believe that founders will ultimately hold a larger stake in the company, as they won't need to raise as much capital.

You once drew an analogy. If we look back at those early industrial giants, we'll find that entrepreneurs like Henry Ford once held 100% of their companies' shares.

Moreover, some companies went public with their founders still holding 70% or even 80% of the shares.

So I'm particularly curious: how much will the way a 21- or 22-year-old founder builds a company differ from that of a 35-year-old entrepreneur?

Mickey Malka: First of all, this generation of young people is acutely aware that if they play strictly by the rules of the existing social system, they will find it very difficult to win.

They'll be saddled with student loans, trapped in all sorts of problems, and they've already seen it all on YouTube and social media.

At the same time, they witnessed firsthand the dawn of an era defined by Musk, by innovators, and by "Edison‑style thinking." They saw what humanity can achieve when it truly unleashes its imagination.

Even more remarkable is that capital availability is now at or near an all-time high, approaching a virtually unlimited supply.

Especially if you're still young, the capital available to you today is greater than at any point in history.

Thus, for this generation, it amounts to an almost perfect environment: they can both innovate and take on risks that were once unimaginable.

What's interesting is that the more you talk with them, the more you realize: many young people find working solely on software to be dull, unengaging, and lacking in challenge. They'd rather step into the physical world, work with materials and hardware, and build things with their own hands. They don't mind tackling tasks that are heavier, more complex, and require real hands‑on effort, hoping that the end result will be products people can truly hold in their hands and use in everyday life.

This is particularly interesting, because over the past fifteen to twenty years, the prevailing entrepreneurial trend has been just the opposite. Back then, almost everyone sought to adopt a light‑asset model, aiming to focus solely on software and iterate rapidly.

But this generation of young people isn't afraid to take on "hard" tasks, nor are they hesitant to roll up their sleeves and get their hands dirty.

So the behavior they exhibit is very interesting.

David Senra: Why has this change occurred?

Mickey Malka: I'm not sure either.

Perhaps it's because they've grown up in a world of smartphones, tablets, and computers. For them, when everything is reduced to software, bits, and bytes, it actually ceases to be all that interesting.

However, the more I interact with this group of young people, the more I find myself asking them a particular question.

This generation—those a bit older are probably 25 or 26 now, while the younger ones are around 18. So I often ask them, "What were you doing during those pandemic years?"

This question is particularly intriguing. I've noticed that many of the most outstanding young people haven't stopped at all during the pandemic. They spend hours on YouTube, soaking up information, curious about everything and eager to learn.

So when they finally start their own businesses, they often exhibit several distinct characteristics.

First, they haven't yet been constrained by too much experience. Precisely because of this, they readily believe: "Why not? Anything is possible."

Second, today's technology truly gives them that confidence. Many things that were simply impossible in the past are now genuinely achievable.

Third, older individuals possess knowledge, experience, and wisdom, but they may not necessarily retain the vigorous drive that young people bring.

Therefore, what this generation of young founders really needs to learn going forward is how to attract the experience and wisdom of the previous generation to their side.

And now we have already begun to see this phenomenon.

The most outstanding young founders are attracting many highly accomplished, more seasoned professionals to join their teams, as these veterans, too, are drawn to the energy and ambition of the younger generation.

David Senra: So now the situation has reversed—twenty-something young people are recruiting those with more experience.

Mickey Malka: That's right. And they often break teams down into very small units, with just two or three people forming a single cell.

For example, pair two 22-year-olds with someone who has twenty years of experience and have them work together.

Young professionals are well-versed in new technologies and modern ways of working, and they know how to architect systems today; meanwhile, seasoned veterans bring the experience and sound judgment that can only be honed through two decades of hands-on practice.

The truly interesting part is when these two abilities begin to converge.

David Senra: If we extend this trend another five or ten years, will these young people still enjoy a significant technological advantage?

You and I are already using AI extensively. But in our daily lives, there are still plenty of other things to attend to. In contrast, they can truly immerse themselves in AI around the clock.

Mickey Malka: That's right, and they certainly will. In fact, we've only just begun to see the first cohort of students who have had AI by their side for nearly all of their university years.

The real change has only just begun.

Students who are now entering their final year of university may also be the first in history to use ChatGPT to help them draft their college applications.

David Senra: The reason I keep asking you about these young people is that I've actually encountered some founders who are around thirty-five years old.

They are already the CTOs of highly successful tech companies, yet they tell me, "I don't know if I can keep going," or, "Am I already too old?"

I said, "You're only 35—what are you talking about?"

They'll reply, "Yes, but I really feel like a 24-year-old might leave me behind."

Mickey Marca: I don't think 35 is old. To be honest, I've never felt old myself. I still believe I can keep playing this game just fine.

But you need to understand one thing: your approach has to change. You can't keep competing today the way you did when you were 20 or 30.

You have to understand that the gaming landscape has changed, and what you can truly contribute now is different from what it was in your youth.

David Senra: So what can you offer these young people?

Mickey Malka: Wisdom, knowledge, and experience—things they have not yet experienced and can hardly yet truly comprehend.

Moreover, even today's most talented young people, in my view, still largely lack a crucial quality: taste. They must gradually develop their own sense of taste and learn how to create things that are truly beautiful.

This is not easy.

Moreover, I believe that over the years, society as a whole has gradually lost the ability to create things that are truly beautiful and aesthetically pleasing.

Silicon Valley lost this capability long ago; now we have to reclaim it.

I hope that this generation of young people will once again thoughtfully reconsider one fundamental question: How can we truly create products and experiences that are genuinely beautiful?

10

Creating truly great products and experiences is essential.

David Senra, could you elaborate a bit more? Why do you believe that Silicon Valley has lost its ability to create great products?

Mickey Malka: If you look back over the past fifteen years, you'll see that the industry's entire incentive structure—along with nearly every metric used to gauge success—has been rewarding essentially the same things: greater scale, faster growth, more features, and higher efficiency.

Everything revolves around these goals.

But gradually, people stopped asking another question: Is the product itself beautiful?

Think about it: when was the last time you bought a tech product that genuinely made you exclaim, "Wow, this thing is so beautiful"?

David Senra: I'm almost embarrassed to admit it. The answer is rather embarrassing—a Dyson vacuum cleaner.

Mickey Malka: What's wrong with that? And every time I ask this question, Dyson shows up incredibly often.

There's also the Airwrap.

If you have a daughter or other female family members, you'll notice they absolutely love Dyson products.

And that person from your team just now—didn't they show us their iPhone SE? You know, that compact‑sized iPhone.

Why does he still keep it? Because it's beautiful. It's one of those Apple products that are truly thoughtfully designed, making you want to hold it in your hand all the time.

Over the past years, we have gradually lost this capability because the industry has consistently rewarded efficiency, algorithms, and anything that can scale continuously and generate compounding returns.

At the same time, however, we've overlooked another crucial question: what exactly does a product make people feel?

In the future, technology will penetrate ever deeper into our lives, becoming more ubiquitous than at any point in history.

Precisely for this reason, we now need more than ever to rediscover that sense.

The real question is: when you use a product, how does it make you feel? I'm not talking about building a brand and then shooting a slick TV commercial.

What I really care about is: Is this thing genuine? Is it beautifully designed in its own right? And when you use it every day and live with it, what kind of feelings does it actually evoke?

David Senra, it's awfully convenient that you're saying this now.

Just this morning, and over the past few days as well, I've been rereading a biography of Jony Ive, Apple's former chief design officer. The book is titled something like "Jony Ive: The Genius Behind Apple's Greatest Products."

Throughout the entire book, what he keeps emphasizing is, in fact, just one word: feeling.

When he was young, he even felt that computers had nothing to do with him; in his eyes, they were both ugly and clumsy. Then one day, he used a Mac for the first time—and truly began to engage with it.

At that time, it was still a long way before he joined Apple. But his first impression was, "There's a person behind this product." You could feel that a real person had thought carefully about how you'd use it and truly cared about your experience.

Even when the book recounts how he redesigned a comb, his question remained: "What will this object feel like in my hand?"

Exactly the same as what you just said.

Mickey Malka: That's right. I believe that if we can't rediscover this capability, the future will be straightforward: founders who possess it will prevail.

And for those who completely lack this ability, I believe their opportunities will only continue to shrink.

11

Why did Nick invest in Revolut 10 years ago?

David Senra: Just before you came over, I was still on the phone with our mutual friend Neil Mehta, the founder of Greenoaks Capital.

He's been telling me about Nik Storonsky of Revolut—Nik Storonsky, co-founder and CEO of Revolut, a UK‑based fintech company renowned for its digital banking, cross‑border payments, and multi‑currency financial services.

We were originally talking about something completely unrelated when I casually remarked, "I'm heading over to see Mickey Malka in a bit."

He immediately said to me, "You absolutely have to ask Mickey whether he still remembers that conversation we had back then."

Because he said you joined the Knicks many years before he did.

Neil later likely participated in Revolut's most recent two or three funding rounds, but he still recalls that many years ago he called you to say he had decided not to invest in Nick.

So I'm really curious now: why have I been hearing people talk about Nick so often lately? What makes him so special?

Mickey Malka: To truly understand Nick, you first have to grasp how he was raised—and also what kind of person he really is at his core.

A few weeks ago, I just visited London.

At the time, Revolut's banking license was finally approved, and the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer along with several government officials were present on site.

Nick was there too, along with his co-founder, Vlad Yatsenko.

I pulled out my phone and suddenly wondered: what was the exact date when we first shook hands and sealed our Series A round?

When I checked, it turned out to be exactly the same day as ten years ago.

So I walked over, showed them my phone, and said, "Look—ten years ago today, we were still sipping vodka and talking about our Series A round."

David Senra: So, when you first met Nick, what exactly was it about him that drew you in?

Mickey Malka: First of all, the name "Revolut" itself sounds very much like Nick.

He genuinely seeks to spark a revolution in the financial sector—not merely to fine-tune the existing system or make minor tweaks here and there, but to overhaul it entirely.

He came to London from Moscow, having previously worked as a trader, and he harbors a deep-seated dissatisfaction with the traditional financial system. Why is transferring money so complicated? Why is it so cumbersome? Why are the costs so high? And why is the entire system so unfair to ordinary people?

In the end, his reaction was very straightforward: "To hell with it—I'm going to fix this."

So from day one, that disruptive spirit was already ingrained in him. More importantly, every single day thereafter, he truly lived his life in exactly that way.

Every morning, he gets up, goes for a swim, and then heads to the office. He's always the first one there—and the last to leave. The next day, he shows up first again.

He has consistently kept up with swimming to maintain his physical condition, then obsessively focused on his mission, relentlessly pushing forward.

The people around him have only two choices: keep up with his pace, or fall behind.

Because his execution is truly on another level, he operates like a machine, never stopping. In his mind, there's always just one thing: "I have a mission, and I must see it through in my lifetime."

David Senra: I'm glad you used the word "machine." That's pretty much what Neil meant when he described him. He said, "That guy is nothing short of a damn Terminator."

Mickey Malka: But that was Nick in his late twenties. That's just how he was back then.

Today, ten years later, I feel he has actually grown even stronger.

Why? Because he has now learned how to lead. He can inspire others through his actions and, driven by a sense of mission, unite the entire team.

Moreover, today he has truly grown into a mission-driven founder.

He can even lead the company with his taste and judgment. He has a very clear sense of what is right, how far the product should go, and in which direction things ought to move.

Even today, around 20 people still report directly to him.

His work style has also changed. He might crank out high-intensity work for seven days straight, then take a two-week complete break every so often.

As you can see, he has gradually fine-tuned his work pace to suit the current stage of his career, no longer the same Nick from ten years ago who just kept charging ahead.

This is also a factor we place great emphasis on when making investments: whether the founder's core qualities can remain consistent over the long term.

When we invest in a team, we work hard to understand the founders' deepest motivations. What truly drives them? How do they typically approach their work? And how do they respond when faced with pressure?

But more importantly, we will continue to assess whether these traits of the founder have truly become embedded in the company's culture.

When you walk into the office, can you tell? Do the team members' ways of speaking, working, and thinking all share the same underlying tone?

Today, Revolut's offices span fifteen to twenty countries.

Over the past year and a half, I've visited their offices in the Middle East, Barcelona, and London. Yet no matter which one you walk into, you can still sense the same thing.

The same drive that Nick had when he first founded the company still lives on in this organization. That, after all, is the key to a company's sustained progress.

So I've always believed that you need to understand a founder very deeply, because every company is ultimately unique.

12

Founders who aspire to long-term partnerships should possess five key qualities.

David Senra: You've always said that to understand a founder's DNA, you need to do something. But what exactly does that entail?

Mickey Malka: You have to genuinely spend time with them, keep asking questions, and build the relationship deep enough so that, over time, you often don't even need to talk about business.

What truly matters is how you build a level of trust deep enough to make the other person willing to trust you in return. And to what extent should that trust go?

Trust is such that one day, in the middle of the night, unable to sleep over a problem, he'll think of calling you.

This is, in fact, what I spend most of my time doing—and it's also what the entire Ribbit team dedicates the most effort to:

Truly understand these people and gradually build that kind of relationship.

Because only by taking this step will you understand how a person reacts under real pressure. And once you truly grasp someone's behavioral patterns, many things become much simpler.

From now on, all you need to do is watch one thing: whether he's still acting in accordance with the principles he's always followed.

Or perhaps, one day, he began to stray from the person he truly was.

David Senra: Why is it so important to you to be the person that "founders call when they're stuck"?

Mickey Malka: After all, everyone has those nights when they can't fall asleep.

There's always that one question stuck in your mind, impossible to shake. And more often than not, that very question is precisely what you need to address right now. Only when you've sorted it out can you move forward at your best.

But the more it's a problem like this, the harder it is to bring up.

Sometimes it touches on a person's most vulnerable side, and other times it carries profoundly significant strategic implications. You keep turning it over in your mind, yet you don't know who to confide in.

So, if we can answer that call at a moment like this, it means we've done at least a hundred things right along the way—earning that trust and proving ourselves worthy of being there to think through the issue with him.

But remember: don't answer for him. Your job is to help him find the answers on his own—and to do that, you must have already talked about many things: life, family, society, politics—everything.

Only when you truly understand a person can you, at the most critical moment, help them find their own answer.

David Senra: Your relationship with many founders has already spanned over a decade.

If you compare Nick with these other individuals, what common traits do the founders you'd most want to spend time with and collaborate with over the long term share?

Mickey Malka: They all want to win on their own terms, and they care deeply about staying true to themselves.

You'll find that truly exceptional people still hold fast to the mission they wrote on day one, even after more than a decade.

When a person consistently remains true to themselves and never strays from their original self, they often find the strength to keep moving forward.

People like this are also the ones you're willing to keep spending time with.

Another type of person is different. At first, they forge ahead by "pretending to be capable and then figuring out how to make it work." But as the company grows and their circumstances change—shifting in direction, altering their rhetoric—they gradually forget even the original reasons that set them on this path.

With people like this, the longer you spend with them, the less willing you become to invest your time—because it's just not worth it.

David Senra: Will this kind of "staying true to oneself" ultimately be reflected in the company's business performance?

Mickey Malka sometimes does.

David Senra: So, are there people who aren't really all that genuine yet still manage to build highly successful companies?

Mickey Malka: Of course there is—absolutely.

But given enough time, at some point, reality will inevitably come to matter.

As long as you remain true to yourself and your values, never lose sight of why you're doing what you do, and wake up each morning with that same drive in your heart, I believe you'll face few major challenges.

David Senra: If we go back to the earlier example of Rick Rubin, he probably had just four or five core principles, and he stuck with them for decades.

So if I asked you to name four or five traits that founders must possess in order for you to be willing to partner with them long-term and walk alongside them for many years, what would your answer be?

Mickey Malka: We have an inside term called "Eye of the Tiger"—the tiger's eye.

This is the set of criteria we use to determine whether someone is a founder we truly want to partner with over the long term—and, as I mentioned earlier, it must ultimately be able to fit on a napkin.

If a complex issue can ultimately be distilled down to a single napkin, it means we've thought about it long enough and deeply enough.

In the end, we distilled these into five key elements: the spirit of scientific inquiry; a missionary‑like conviction; the heart of a partner; the dreams of an athlete; and the unwavering dedication of an owner.

As we get to know a founder and spend time with them, we begin to see whether these qualities are truly present.

If they're all on board, these are the people we truly want to partner with long-term.

David Senra: How long did it take you to distill these five points into such a concise summary?

Mickey Malka: It really took about ten years to flesh out this whole system. It wasn't until roughly five years ago that we finally managed to condense it down to "a single napkin."

13

The ins and outs of partnering with Walmart to establish a financial services company

David Senra: Do you consider yourself a patient person?

Mickey Malka is.

David Senra: Because today I asked you several questions, and your answers were all, "That took several years."

You founded your first company when you were 17, right?

Mickey Malka: That's right, 17 years old.

David Senra later went on to found several companies in succession. But it wasn't until nearly twenty years later that he actually founded Ribbit.

Mickey Malka will have to wait a bit longer. 2021.

David Senra: Ribbit has been around for nearly 14 years now. I've heard you say this before—many people tell you, "Your track record is already outstanding," "You've invested in so many companies and accomplished so much."

But your reply was, "Yes, but it's actually still too early."

Mickey Malka: We still have a long way to go. We've brought together a group of exceptionally talented people, and we've got plenty of great ideas.

But we're still building. For example, we even set up a company together with Walmart.

Think about it—something like this has never happened before.

David Senra: Yes, I only just heard about this myself.

Mickey Malka: This matter really reflects Ribbit's values. I've always been a big fan of Sam Walton, the founder of Walmart.

I've read almost all of his books.

But until a few years ago, I hadn't been to Bentonville even once.

I've always kept an eye on Walmart. In fact, I first learned about Walmart thanks to Buffett. I recall that Berkshire once held Walmart shares for a while before eventually selling them off.

In 2019, through Sarah Friar (a Walmart Director and tech industry executive), I had the opportunity to meet Doug McMillon (then Walmart's CEO).

Sarah arranged a dinner. It was a few months before the pandemic, and we had a meal together in San Francisco.

After dinner, Doug said to me, "If you ever happen to be in Bentonville someday, drop by and see me."

I was still thinking, "What could possibly bring me all the way to Bentonville?"

But after that meal, I was deeply impressed by Doug.

His manner of speaking, his understanding of the macroeconomy and the world at large, as well as Walmart's values, are all naturally reflected in him.

It was a very small dinner.

Of course, a person may behave differently in different settings, but at the time, I felt: this was simply who he was.

Later, our team actually visited several Walmart stores and tried out almost all the financial services available there, including money transfers, prepaid card top-ups, and various financial products…

Then we uncovered numerous issues. Many of the user experiences still seem stuck at the fintech standards of the 1990s.

David Senra: Are these financial services provided by Walmart itself, or are there other service providers in the store?

Mickey Malka has it all. They have partners and third-party service providers, and Walmart itself also offers cards, but the products are quite ordinary.

So in January 2020, before the pandemic broke out, I wrote Doug a letter saying, "If you're in Bentonville, I'd like to come by and see you." And sure enough, he replied, "Okay."

So I went.

Doug and I sat down to talk, and he introduced me to John Furner—Walmart executive who later became Walmart's CEO.

John and Doug have both worked at Walmart for nearly 30 years, and both joined the company when they were teenagers.

John and I are about the same age. So, in a sense, we both launched our careers around the same time—though we were on two entirely different continents.

That day, we sat in a room, and I told them straight: "You can absolutely make Walmart's financial services much better. This may not even rank among your top three priorities, but for us, it's the most important thing. So let's work together to make it happen."

As a result, Walmart did something it had never done before. We jointly established a joint venture, with both parties holding equity; then we brought in a very strong team to build an entirely new brand; later, we acquired two companies and built the underlying infrastructure.

Today, this company is led by Omer Ismail, CEO of OnePay.

It's called OnePay. It may be one of the largest financial brands in the United States—yet most people have never even heard of it.

David Senra: Has it now been rolled out across the entire Walmart system?

Mickey Malka: When you shop online at Walmart, you'll encounter it at almost every checkout stage. The same goes for in-store shopping.

Today, whether you want to pay with your mobile phone, open a debit card, or take out a loan through Klarna, virtually every type of financial service is delivered to tens of millions of U.S. consumers via OnePay.

And there's another intriguing aspect to this: John's past.

This also reflects a strong aspect of Walmart's culture.

John worked in China for many years, so he has firsthand experience of how WeChat Pay evolved and how Alipay developed its financial services.

Walmart has also invested in Flipkart and PhonePe in India, so they have seen firsthand what mobile finance can ultimately become.

This has made them exceptionally excellent partners.

So along the way, it was actually a joint effort by the founding team, Ribbit, and Walmart.

For a company as large as Walmart, this kind of collaboration is quite rare.

14

Starting Lemon Bank in Brazil nearly wiped out all the money I had previously earned.

David Senra, didn't you used to run a bank in South America? I think it was a bank that didn't have traditional branch offices, instead offering financial services inside convenience stores and retail outlets.

Mickey Malka: That's right—over in Brazil, it's called Lemon Bank.

David Senra: That sounds like you actually took some of the ideas you validated back then at Lemon Bank and brought them to Walmart over a decade later.

Lemon Bank was founded by you, wasn't it? Later, you sold it to Brazil's largest bank, right?

Mickey Malka. Right.

David Senra So, from a fundamental logical standpoint, OnePay is essentially the same thing; the only difference is that this time the partner has become Walmart.

So, can you explain how these two things are actually connected?

Mickey Malka: This is the infinite game.

If you view life as an infinite game, then whether you're ahead or behind is merely the state of a particular phase.

In 2003, we launched Lemon Bank in Brazil. I lived there for three years, working around the clock—literally giving it my all. Along the way, I nearly got into trouble on several occasions, and the company came close to shutting down twice as well.

There was even a time when I nearly lost all the money I had earned up to that point.

David Senra, how did you almost lose all the money you'd earned earlier?

Mickey Malka: After we sold our first internet company, I took nearly all the proceeds from that sale and reinvested them in this bank in Brazil.

My wife and I moved to Brazil and have been living there ever since.

David Senra: You don't have any external investors? It's all your own money?

Mickey Malka: We had no external investors—just the money from myself and my business partner, Wences Casares, a serial entrepreneur and co-founder of Lemon Bank.

David Senra: So you basically pushed all your chips back onto the table again?

Mickey Malka: All my chips. Back then, we were only 25 or 26 years old, and we really came close to losing everything.

Because the macroeconomic environment remained sluggish at the time, no matter how hard we tried, we were unable to turn the business around.

This is also how you truly come to understand that the macro environment matters.

I grew up in Venezuela and experienced hyperinflation and currency devaluation, so in theory, I've long understood just how critical the macroeconomic environment is.

But knowing is one thing. When your entire fortune is on the line, experiencing it firsthand is a completely different feeling.

David Senra: So you were 25 at the time, and what you essentially wanted to do was create a bank without traditional brick-and-mortar branches—just set up small service points in various locations?

Mickey Malka: At the time, there were mainly three models.

One approach is to integrate directly into the checkout counters of existing retail stores; another is to set up a dedicated service counter within the store, which can be considered a hybrid model; and a third option is to open small franchise outlets that specialize in providing our payment and financial services.

David Senra, because smartphones weren't yet widespread at that time.

Mickey Malka: Right, after all, it was from 2003 to 2007.

Although mobile communications already existed, the overall infrastructure was far from as mature as it is today. As a result, we had to build and operate many systems ourselves.

At its peak, we operated roughly 7,000 physical service locations across Brazil, serving approximately 50 million people.

At the time, nearly half of Brazil's population lacked bank accounts. The opportunity lay in bringing those who had previously been excluded from formal banking services into the financial system for the first time.

We were among the first institutions to truly bring banking services to this group of people.

David Senra: So, in a sense, you essentially did the hardest part first for the large bank that later acquired your company.

You've created a market that traditional banks have long been unable to serve effectively, and these customers have now become financial clients.

So in the end, they simply bought you out.

That's just how Mickey Malka is.

David Senra: Which year?

Mickey Malka, 2008.

David Senra: So in 2008, he sold Lemon Bank.

Then, twelve years later, in 2020, you began negotiations with Walmart. The experience you had accumulated over the past twelve years suddenly proved invaluable once again.

Mickey Malka. Right.

David Senra: That's the long game.

Mickey Malka: This is the infinite game.

Moreover, if you look back at the major decisions Ribbit has made over the years, you'll find that nearly every one can be traced to something I experienced twenty years ago.

David Senra: This point is especially important for young entrepreneurs.

Because, as you mentioned earlier, over the past few years, the startup world has increasingly come to embrace a familiar trajectory: start up, scale, and exit.

But many of your partners have been working together for 20 years.

Some of the founders you've invested in are the same way. For example, Vlad Tenev of Robinhood—when you first met him, they hadn't even officially launched their product yet. The app hadn't been released to the public, and they didn't have a single customer?

Mickey Malka: Not a single one.

David Senra: So your relationship with him has already lasted over a decade.

When I used to write entrepreneur biographies, I'd often sum it up in one sentence: "Stay at the table long enough, and eventually luck will find you."

Because so many of life's most important moments simply can't be planned or predicted in advance.

Mickey Malka. Right.

David Senra: That's why I've always found this phrase particularly important: stay in the game long enough, and good fortune will eventually come.

Mickey Malka: That's the power of compound interest.

And it's not just money that compounds. Relationships, morality, work, principles, love, passion, time—every aspect of life benefits from compounding.

So don't dwell too much on whether you won or lost today—let it unfold naturally.

Compound interest is the most important formula in all of society. The same holds true for friendship and family. All you need to do is stay consistent and keep at it, day after day.

15

Reputation is the only asset we truly possess.

David Senra: This is truly Buffett, and also Munger.

Munger once said, in essence: You should master a handful of truly important ideas in each major discipline, because it is these ideas that do most of the heavy lifting.

After reading entrepreneur biographies for so many years, I've gradually developed my own version:

In truth, it is time that bears the brunt of the burden.

If you're in a good business, stay there as long as you can. Many things don't require constant tinkering; time itself will do most of the work for you.

But if you truly want to play an infinite game and dedicate yourself to a single pursuit for many years, you must safeguard your reputation.

This is also something Buffett has repeatedly emphasized: money can be lost—even a great deal—but one's reputation must never be compromised.

So I'm really curious—how do you understand the concept of "reputation"?

Mickey Mulkay: I've been attending Berkshire Hathaway's annual shareholder meeting since I was 18.

Back then, the event was still quite small—on Friday afternoons, it was held at a holiday hotel, with perhaps only a few hundred attendees on site.

Later, the conference moved to a larger venue, and each year, before it began, a video would be shown featuring past Berkshire advertisements as well as excerpts from Buffett's interviews over the years.

And ever since I was very young, I've watched the same video every year—footage of Buffett testifying before Congress when he was Chairman of Salomon Brothers.

It's the sentence you just mentioned.

It keeps reappearing year after year, until it's almost etched into my mind.

David Senra, and so on—so does Berkshire reshoot that segment every year?

Mickey Malka does it every year. That was what Buffett said when he testified before Congress after the Solomon Brothers incident.

From a very young age, I've listened to it again every year.

Later, the reason I increasingly came to wish that I, too, could live in this way was largely because these values were already deeply in tune with my nature.

Reputation is more important than anything else.

David Senra: The people I truly trust and admire are actually quite few. But when I place great trust in someone, I also pay attention to whom else they trust and whom they admire.

I was reminded of a quote by Charlie Munger: "Trust is one of the most powerful economic forces in the world."

You've spent a very, very long time building your reputation among people I already trusted. That's why, even on our first meeting, I was able to quickly trust your judgment—and even feel confident enough to make a major career decision based on it.

I think this matter is particularly important.

Similar examples have repeatedly surfaced throughout business history.

Mickey Malka: I believe that reputation is our most valuable asset—indeed, it may be the only asset we truly possess.

Everything else can be gained and lost, but your reputation will stay with you—indeed, it will endure even after you're gone.

David Senra: There's another person who has also profoundly shaped my understanding of reputation—Palmer Luckey, the founder of Oculus and co-founder of the defense‑tech company Anduril.

His views are very similar to yours.

Many people would say that if someone attacks your reputation, you should be magnanimous, ignore it, and avoid getting drawn into the dispute.

But Palmer's stance is: No way. If someone damages your reputation with falsehoods, you must fight back.

Because it can silently shut the door on many of your future opportunities. For example, someone might spread false rumors that damage your reputation.

Two years later, you decide to meet someone else, and that person happens to have heard the same story and come to believe it. He won't simply tell you, "I'm not seeing you because I think you have a bad reputation."

He'll just come up with another random excuse to turn you down.

So the real danger is that much of the damage caused by reputational harm may never even come to light.

I find this insight particularly interesting.

In fact, Benjamin Franklin did just that more than two centuries ago. On the one hand, he carefully cultivated his reputation; on the other, when others unjustly sought to damage it, he proactively defended himself.

Mickey Malka—this one I really like.

I didn't know Franklin had this side to him—I'll have to go back and read it again.

16

Establish a digital art exhibition space with a rebellious spirit.

David Senra: Before we record, let me tell you—I just received that piece of art I ordered from Node earlier. So what exactly is Node? And why did you decide to create it?

Mickey Malka: I think it is, in itself, a manifestation of the spirit of rebellion.

My wife and I both love art. Art has existed since the time when humans still lived in caves. A work that truly moves you carries immense value.

About five years ago, we first encountered digital art.

I once saw a digital artwork on Twitter that bore a striking resemblance to a physical piece from the 1970s in our home.

So we began to follow this line of inquiry, gradually discovering that many digital artists are using new tools to reimagine aesthetic sensibilities that have long been present in the history of art.

So we began to bring digital works and traditional works together.

Later on, we began to get to know these artists themselves. Once we truly got to know them, we found that almost all of them were thoroughgoing rebels.

Many people originally studied computer science, only to ultimately decide to become artists, using a different medium to tell stories.

This is actually very similar to the entrepreneurs we just discussed. For example, Node is currently organizing an exhibition of Beeple's work.

David Senra: Yes, that's exactly what I saw.

Mickey Malka and Mike Winkelmann (an American digital artist known by his stage name Beeple) actually very much resemble entrepreneurs.

For 5,000 consecutive days, he created one piece of work each day and posted it online.

The reason is simple: he believes that as long as he sticks to the same task every day, he will keep improving.

In 2007, he was still just sketching.

I started using Photoshop in 2011.

In 2014, he switched back to Cinema 4D.

The tools keep changing, but one thing has never changed: do it every day, and post every day.

For a long time, no one would buy it at all. Some people paid attention, some mocked it, some offered encouragement, and others attacked it.

He did just that for 14 years—until 2021, when those 5,000 days of work finally fetched $69 million.

That moment felt just like a company's IPO: you'd been quietly working for years, with hardly anyone paying attention—then, one day, the whole world finally took notice.

So what will the true rebel do next?

Beeple's response was, "Then let's keep doubling down."

He set up his own studio and began creating works that had previously been beyond his reach. Today, he has become one of the most active digital artists.

Moreover, Beeple is just one example.

Many people look at CryptoPunks and see only a JPEG. But to me, they represent a movement, a cultural icon, and among the very first works of art truly born on the blockchain.

And it just so happened to choose a portrait.

If you look back at the history of art, you'll find that almost every major artistic movement has revisited the subject of the human portrait.

So later we went to the museum and said, "These works deserve to be properly exhibited."

Because at home, we've long observed this kind of reaction. When the kids were teenagers, they often brought friends over. Once those young people walked in, it was usually not the traditional art on the walls that drew them in for fifteen to twenty minutes—gazing, discussing, interacting, and peppering questions—but rather these digital works.

So we went to the museum.

As a result, they readily agreed, but added, "We'll have to wait another four or five years. We still need to find a curator first, and it will be up to the curator to decide how the artists' works should be presented."

My wife and I exchanged a glance, and there was only one thought in our minds: No way—why wait? This should happen today.

So we created Node. It's a dedicated exhibition space designed for digital artists.

Most importantly, here the artist themselves serves as the curator. For this aligns with the logic of a rebel: you decide for yourself how your work should be seen, rather than letting others dictate how it ought to be presented.

Node is just such a place.

You can truly step inside and experience firsthand the art of the digital age. Moreover, we deliberately located the first Node in downtown Palo Alto.

Because I believe Silicon Valley needs to rediscover its creativity.

This is a small thing we can do.

Allow such a space to truly become part of the city and the community, so that people can step inside at any time.

Five months after Node opened, nearly 60,000 visitors have already stopped by, with attendance breaking records almost every weekend.

It is free and open to everyone.

And my favorite phenomenon is when children take their parents to see it on their own initiative.

This brings us back to the topics we discussed earlier: beauty, taste, and the creation of authenticity.

I believe that today's digital artists are a group of people who genuinely use digital tools to express themselves.

Then let them be seen, and encourage more people to engage directly with the artwork.

Then, let this creativity, in turn, inspire entrepreneurs, enabling them to infuse their products with a renewed appreciation for beauty and experience.

David Senra: But that's precisely why I've always felt you're more of an entrepreneur at heart than an investor. You're constantly on the lookout for untapped opportunities—gaps that traditional institutions either haven't addressed or simply overlooked.

Mickey Malka: Because I'm a rebel.

David Senra: When I went to Node with you, I noticed that even the walls and the display structure could be reconfigured.

Beeple's exhibition will run for about two months, after which the next artist will take over. The underlying infrastructure remains in place, but artists can treat the entire space itself as their canvas.

Mickey Malka is absolutely right. We believe that in the future, many such places will emerge around the world.

Traditional museums will also change and evolve.

It just takes time.

David Senra: And the fact that you've located Node in downtown Palo Alto is, in itself, very much in line with your approach.

Node isn't one of those sprawling destinations that demand a full day of sightseeing. It's nestled in a charming, walkable downtown, feeling like an integral part of the neighborhood itself.

Mickey Malka: If you read history, you'll find that this isn't really all that new.

One of the intriguing aspects of the Infinite Game is that you must both live in the future and make sense of the past.

What digital art is experiencing today bears a striking resemblance to what the avant-garde movements in Paris went through back then.

At the time, many emerging artists' works were unable to gain entry into the mainstream exhibition circuit, so they had no choice but to seek their own platforms for presentation.

Later, Impressionism and the subsequent series of artistic movements fundamentally transformed the way people perceive art.

I believe we are experiencing a similar moment today—except this time, the starting point may not be Paris; it might be Palo Alto.

David Senra: So you consider the first Node as a prototype?

Mickey Malka named it "Node" precisely because the term inherently refers to a "node" in a network.

Over the next year, we will continue to refine our work here, steadily improving our technology, user interface, and the entire presentation system.

There are many engineers behind Node. From the very beginning, it was conceived not according to the conventional logic of a traditional art museum, but by bringing engineering, technology, and art together. Once the first Node is fully operational, we'll expand to other locations and establish more such nodes.

17

I hope my epitaph will call me a "rebel."

David Senra, why are you so obsessed with "rebels"? That word is everywhere on your website, and the people who know you keep saying you're always talking about rebels.

Mickey Malka: First of all, I belong to the Star Wars generation—I grew up watching Star Wars, and I still love it immensely today.

On the other hand, I grew up in Venezuela. For me, growing up in such an environment inherently demanded a certain rebellious spirit.

Systemic problems, chaos, and all sorts of irrationalities are always there—you have to find a way not to get swallowed up by them.

So, as I see it, a rebel is quite simple: you genuinely believe that things can be better, and you're willing to devote your life to making that happen.

For me, rebellion is not a mere posture; it is a way of life and a way of seeing the world.

Whatever you see, you can choose to accept it just as it is.

You can also keep asking: Can it be even better? Can it be even more beautiful? What's still missing?

So the true rebel always believes that, even when things are already good, they can still be made better.

David Senra started his own business at the age of 17, which might easily lead one to assume you were born a rebel. How did you bring that rebellious spirit into Ribbit?

Many people would call you one of the finest venture capitalists, but I've never seen it that way. In my eyes, you're first and foremost an entrepreneur.

Mickey Mulkay: If, in the end, the label others bestow upon me is "the greatest venture capitalist," then so be it.

Then I'd be really upset. First, I hate labels; second, that's not the kind of label I wanted to leave behind at all.

If one day a tombstone must bear a single sentence, I would only wish it to read: "He was a rebel."

That's enough. Because this one sentence pretty much explains everything about me.

How I raise my children, how I relate to my wife, how I treat my friends, how I make business decisions, and even how I change my own perspective.

If I learn something new and realize my previous judgment was wrong, I'm willing to change it.

Being willing to change one's mind is, in itself, a form of rebellion.

On the contrary, I try to steer clear of that mindset—that my child will always be fine and that whatever I do is bound to be the best.

True rebels keep asking questions.

You are, too. Because you keep asking, keep learning, and still want to dig deeper.

But you and I both know people who, once they reach a certain stage in life, stop asking questions.

They began to preach. At that point, the part of him that had been the "rebel" was, in fact, already over.

Everyone may have such a turning point. I only hope that mine will come on the very last day of my life.

So I have to embed this principle in everything I do. For instance, right now, I'm challenging the traditional art world by encouraging artists to present their work in new and unconventional ways.

Ribbit is no different. From the very beginning, we never wanted to define ourselves in the way traditional investment firms do.

People often ask, "What exactly are you?" "Do you do early-stage investing?" Yes, we do.

"What about the later stages?" We'll do that too.

"Are you a fintech fund?" "Yes."

"So now you're investing in defense technology again?" "That's right."

What's the problem? Why do I have to let others set boundaries for me?

This is the mindset of a rebel.

David Senra: You were clearly in the investment business, yet even today, your mindset still closely resembles that of a founder. So why did you decide to launch Ribbit back in 2012?

Mickey Malka: Because I never considered Ribbit to be an investment firm.

David Senra, you need to elaborate on that statement.

Mickey Malka: To me, Ribbit is just a Venture.

We built our own tech stack; our team was small, and we saw ourselves as a band of rebels.

Even our internal meetings are named after the desert planet Tatooine from "Star Wars," and team members often refer to one another using character names like "Jedi" and "Wookiee."

The entire rebellious culture of "Star Wars" has truly been integrated into Ribbit's organizational culture.

David Senra—wait, I didn't know that. So you really do love "Star Wars."

Mickey Malka likes it very much.

David Senra: So, are you siding with the Jedi, or are you a Jedi yourself?

Mickey Malka: We cast Jedi, and our team includes both Jedi and Wookiees. These elements aren't just for show—they're genuinely woven into our culture. Culture has to be authentic.

At Ribbit, everyone should feel that this is our own company and that we are a team.

Many investment firms are, in fact, highly fragmented, with each person managing their own projects and turf.

I don't like this.

We'd rather over-communicate. For example, right now, the entire team knows I'm recording a show with you. Everyone can see my calendar and email, and I can see everyone else's as well.

Share information whenever possible, because only then can the team improve together.

In the investment industry, this approach is actually quite unconventional. Our decision-making follows the same principle: it's not a single individual who makes the call, but rather a team that collaborates to arrive at a decision.

So someone asked, "Which partner is responsible for this company?"

I'd say, "What do you mean, 'which partner does it belong to'?"

The founder might bring this issue to me, another to Nick, and yet another to Justin.

We don't each guard our own turf; instead, we work together to serve these companies.

So even today, I still love going to the office every day. I enjoy being with my team because we all genuinely relish working together.

Editor/stephen